No, I think you're wrong, Claude. Like WAAAAY off. (Destiny)

by Korny , Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Thursday, July 30, 2015, 17:08 (3195 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I'm not exactly sure why Mig decided to go with the 'it will be more helpful if you FIGURE OUT what I'm upset about' approach - but Kermit has done a spectacular job of laying out the issue here.

And everyone (EVERYONE) who has participated in this thread so far should read it.

Forget the personal attacks, forget the harsh language, forget that you feel like a friend has been unfairly targeted. READ THIS POST, and think about it.

Nobody is saying you shouldn't express doubts or frustrations or unhappiness with the game. What is important is that IF SOMEONE IS HAPPY WITH THE GAME THEY'RE PLAYING, THEY SHOULDN'T BE MADE TO FEEL BAD ABOUT IT.*

Kermit's comments about having to qualify positive statements to show he's not a rube being taken in by Bungie's money-grabbing techniques really hit home with me; that's become my biggest source of friction here, and I don't even think I recognized it, consciously. I post very little these days, because I feel uncomfortable putting forth unqualified praise - ME, who's been doing this for longer than some of you have been gaming... I'm worried that some of you might think less of me if I say I'm actually enjoying myself. (I get accused of being a blind Bungie fanboy pretty often, but it's by people who don't know me, and who I don't respect at all - so I don't care. The people who post here... I consider most of you friends, to one degree or another, and it's important to me that my friends don't think I'm an idiot. So I'm more careful now than I used to be, because this is more of a 'worldly' place than it's been in the past.)

So when Mig says there's a virus, and that most of us are responsible for propagating it - he's not saying you shouldn't be unhappy with parts of the game, and he's certainly not saying you shouldn't EXPRESS your unhappiness about parts of the game. He's saying you should think about the underlying assumptions you make when you are discussing a topic - do you think we all agree that the story is horribly broken? You shouldn't think that. Because it's not true. (You are ABSOLUTELY WELCOME to think the story is horribly broken - but you should leave room in your discussion for people who disagree with you, and you should treat people who SUGGEST that they disagree with you with the respect that you'd like YOUR ideas to be treated with.)

That's what we're not doing, lately. We're not leaving room for people who disagree with us. When Cody first started ranting about the investment system, and the 'grind', I posted (several times, even) that I didn't consider it a 'grind' because I wasn't playing the way he was playing. Not only did he never acknowledge this, I'm pretty sure he never even really processed it. He read my words, said "he's fooling himself, that's EXACTLY what he's doing, he just doesn't know it", and moved on. And lots and lots and lots of people either agreed outright with that assessment, or, over time, came to accept that assessment as 'the way it is' - if you didn't complain about the grind, you either were lying to yourself, or you were simply not self-aware.

It's not about disagreement. It's about not allowing room for opposing viewpoints. You can frame an argument in a way that makes someone feel small for even thinking about presenting the other side - and that's something that happens more here than on any other b.org forum I can remember. (Hmm... that might not be true. The Myth forum was full of arrogant people for a while, and it was pretty easy to get stepped on if you didn't know what the ground rules were.)

Anyway - I'm not calling everyone arrogant. I'm saying that HOW you frame your argument can be as important to a good discussion as WHAT YOU BRING TO IT.

I, for one, hope Cody's not really gone for good. As much as his absolutist style grated on me, he contributed quite a bit - and as a number of people have already mentioned, I'm of the firm belief that he is NOT his forum persona. He IS a big part of the problem being discussed here - but I see that problem as completely solvable. It's simply a matter of paying attention to how you present your ideas.

*Exception to this rule: If you think Cauldron is a good map, you're a bad person.

Cauldron is my favorite Trials map. Rounds are tense, but short. Encounters brief and dirty. Any mistake can turn a match around quickly, and if you're too focused on a door, a smart enemy (or two) will hit you from the side faster than Dr. Grant can traumatize a child.

As for the rest of what you said, I totally agree. Your few posts tend to remind me to consider alternative viewpoints, especially when you say "that's not how/why I play the game". It's pretty great to take a step back. It was incidentally in the same thread where Cruel was lamenting how not-ultra-MLG his shotgun roll was, and pretty much everyone (possibly even myself) was telling him that he was wrong to have it, or were telling him how to improve his situation (reroll for these specific perks! All others are crap!). I dunno.

Being on Xbox, and not having my Felwinter sniper, Ammo-vomiting Hammer, or Two-shotting Hawkmoon has opened my eyes to a lot of fun that I wouldn't have considered otherwise, and it made me think of all the friends who can't play the game the same way that I do, and have fun in different ways, with weapons that I once considered pointless, or playing in ways that I'm not used to (When I play Trials on PS4, the lighthouse is pretty much a guarantee. Playing with Paddy on Xbox, I had that same mentality, and it bummed me that I was getting annoyed with his unique playstyle, just because I felt that he was doing it wrong. I wasn't having fun, and I'm sure he wasn't either with me harping on him). It's like you said, it's an underlying venom that permeates the mindset of the community; the feeling that "you're not playing the game right", and it's people like Cody and Funk-"I'm Da Bes"-mon that pound it into peoples' heads over and over around here. It is virulent, and like I said, I don't disagree with Mig... Although tough love can be a bit too tough for those with thinner skin.

It's a shame that you feel afraid of sharing your thoughts on what is ostensibly the one safehaven to do so. It's a huge shame, because I think a glass-half-full mentality is a great thing to have, and if we don't have that, because you feel unwanted in your own dojo, then there is something very, very wrong. We do need to take a step back and look at the community. No, the forum does not need "saving", it needs to fix itself, because it's becoming very dirty and narrow. Where are the lore discussions? Where are the fan creations? Where are the defenses for lesser-known weapons?
It's all "this is stupid", "Bungie screwed up here", "this weapon is OP", and the people who enjoy the game start off in a defensive position in every topic, and it bums me out, though I do try to fight it, but why should I have to fight people to get the point across that I like a game, flaws and all?

I dunno, it's kind of sad that I'm the guy asking others to be nice and think about what they're doing.